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--- tags: 採訪共筆 --- # 美聯社採訪共筆 大家好 我叫吳慧中 -我是美聯社台北分社的一名記者。 byline name: Huizhong Wu 郵箱:hwu@ap.org 我們這次希望做一個關於Audrey Tang的專題報導。有一些問題希望向大家請教。我的中文是學校裡學的所以有哪裡有語言不便,請諒解 有一個需求 --在你回答時可以把你的全名放在答案裡嗎?我們通訊社不允許我們利用匿名或者nickname的受訪者除非他們有擔心自己的安全或者受到了具體的威脅。 我不需要翻譯 ## 授權 license: CC BY 4.0 by g0v contributors > 目前沒有標示採訪共筆授權,如果可以希望標示 license: CC BY 4.0-g0v ,或是基本上我的回應都採用這個授權 [name=kiang] > 谢谢, 有加了 [name=Huizhong] > kiang ++ 我微調成 `by g0v contributors` 哦 :) [name=chihao] 受訪者登記: 1. kiang = 江明宗 or Finjon Kiang 2. isabel Hou ([g0v Jothon](https://jothon.g0v.tw/about/)) 3. chihao ## 1. Audrey Tang 任職政委以後,給 g0v 社群帶來什麼樣的變化?開放政府的一些工作有沒有得到台灣政府更多的重視?她有什麼跟 g0v 的項目? > After Audrey Tang became Digital Minister, what kind of change has that meant for g0v? Does g0v feel like the government is more willing to listen to the civic hacker perspective? Are their specific projects that Tang has personally led along with g0v since becoming minister? > 主要的變化是知名度,許多人因為唐鳳的背景而進一步對 g0v 感興趣,包括蔡英文總統的臉書也因此提及 g0v 等等,有別於過去侷限在同溫層的情況;開放政府的工作如果就宣傳面來說是有更多進展,但是實質的情況反而有些倒退,因為在上一任政府末期開放政府議題有比較高的企圖心,進而產生比較大的驅動力量,而唐鳳的基本精神是由下而上驅動,所以許多過去強制性推動的政策與進度就慢慢停擺或甚至倒退。 > [她參與的項目很多](https://github.com/audreyt?tab=repositories) ,比較熟悉的就[萌典](https://www.moedict.tw/)、[ethercalc](https://ethercalc.net/) 等等[name=kiang] > 我可以跟進一下嗎?你提到的之上的政策與進度有倒退具體有什麼?可以給幾個例子嗎? -[name=Huizhong] > 以[政府資料開放諮詢小組](https://www.ndc.gov.tw/cp.aspx?n=E8E2E9E3E4EAE332&s=71EFE02C0E349CC7)為例,初期設置在馬政府時期,當時的會議定期召開、討論內容具體產生共識後可以做出決議,現在的情況則是不必然開會,即使開會提出的建議也經常碰軟釘子,或是會議召開之前主辦單位就有預設立場讓討論無法開放式的進行。同樣的情況也發生在[開放政府聯絡人](https://po.pdis.nat.gov.tw/zh-TW/po/)政策,許多聯絡人缺乏首長的支持而無法發揮預期效果。當然,過去是行政院院長採取高壓方式推動,現況則是大多任其自由發展,好壞難說,但就只是感受的落差吧。[name=kiang] > 許多人提到 g0v 會說:啊!唐鳳! [name=chihao] > 可以參考〈[Reprogramming power: Audrey Tang is bringing hacker culture to the state](https://apolitical.co/en/solution_article/reprogramming-power-audrey-tang-is-bringing-hacker-culture-to-the-state)〉最後一段「Participants, not members」的敘述,原始採訪共筆在[這裡](https://g0v.hackmd.io/x2FU5CoPT4CRNCzyPtC4NA),可以按照授權條款使用其內容。[name=chihao] ## 2. 疫情之下我們關注到了 CECC 有建立一個面對疫情的特遣部隊,這個部隊有很多權力,比如說他們有合併了一些已有的數據庫(衛生部或者移民局),他們也增加了監督比如說在隔離的 “電子圍欄”。有一些關注個人隱私的人批評了這些防疫的行為。請問 g0v 在這種情況下可以做一些倡導嗎?或者有什麼辦法來提反應這些疑慮點? > During the pandemic, the CECC set up a special pandemic task force that had lots of power under which they have increased surveillance and data collection (in a certain respect.) For example, they combined databases and they also partnered with telecoms to set up an electric fence. This has been criticized by privacy advocates. Does G0v have any way to advoacate for these issues, to the government? > g0v 並不是一種典型的組織,每個參與者有著自己的獨立意識,以我本身即使批評這類作法,但評論時並不代表 g0v 。我的評論可以參考 > * https://www.storm.mg/article/2466171 > * https://www.ithome.com.tw/news/137905 > > 回到 g0v 部份就只是 [整理相關技術疑慮](https://g0v.hackmd.io/@kiang/cellular-probe-data) > [name=kiang] > 因為台灣社會運動的生態,許多 g0ver 也是許多議題社會運動、倡議組織的(長期)參與者,g0v 並不是這些 g0ver 發聲的唯一管道。個人意見:也因為 g0v 不是一個中心化的組織,「倡導」、「反應」這種組織化的事,社群可能不擅長。與個人隱私有關,因為 g0v 社交媒體公開治理機制,OCF(開放文化基金會)的伙伴曾藉 g0v Facebook 粉絲專頁宣傳有關電子身分證的連署及活動,我也知道有許多 g0ver 正在關心這個議題。 [name=chihao] > 如果是 eID 的話,g0v Slack 有 #eid 頻道討論這個議題 [name=chihao] ## 3. 你如果之前跟 Tang 在 g0v 的項目有合作過 可以分享一下這種經驗嗎?跟她合作如何? > Have you personally worked with Tang? What was working with her like? > 只有個別問題的處理,大部分情況下就是通報系統問題,她時間允許就立即修正;我所製作的[藥局口罩採購地圖](https://kiang.github.io/pharmacies/)她在提議修改圖示配色後就[主動協助修改程式](https://github.com/kiang/pharmacies/pull/3),大概的感受就是一個非常熟悉開放原始碼社群文化的開發者,而不是一般人對於政務委員那種高高在上的形象[name=kiang] > 請問你提到這個地圖是跟Howard Wu一塊製造的地圖嗎?就是那個經常被媒體提到的受到政府支持的那一個?- [name=Huizhong] > Howard 製作的是第一個口罩地圖,他跟團隊考量營運成本與效益已經關閉網站;我則是跟大部分口罩地圖應用一樣在政策轉換時進行開發,兩者有資料的交流,但都是獨立存在。[name=kiang] > 不算是「合作」:我記得 2015 年 g0v 社群受邀參與第 10 屆台北數位藝術節,把松菸的展覽場地改成開放空間,讓 g0ver 和參觀民眾自由貢獻。展場的一部分設計為 g0v 專案和貢獻者的網絡圖,參與者可以自由留言、張貼相關訊息,au 當時也有來,貼了一些專案的資訊,柱子上的 pizza 盒也是他貼的。當時的確感受到 au 對於展覽形式的開放態度,覺得很有趣。[name=chihao] ## 4. 最近 g0v 有做什麼項目比較活躍?其中有沒有直接跟 Tang 合作?之前 Uber 的那個項目很成功,也受到了很多媒體的關注,請問最近大家在關注什麼議題?希望得到什麼樣的目標?我看 vTaiwan 的網頁上有提到外賣垃圾的問題. > What are the most active programs that g0v is working on right now? Are any of them directly with Tang? > 一樣是在 vTaiwan 的議題,最近比較常看到的是[開放國會行動方案](https://vtaiwan.tw/topic/openparliament),以及在行政單位的[臺灣開放政府國家行動方案](https://join.gov.tw/policies/detail/031e9918-59d5-4a1a-b105-96af228f3147),這兩個方向的基本目標都是希望立法或行政部門可以開放更多民眾期待的資料以及提昇這些資料的品質[name=kiang] > [開放國會行動方案](https:www.ly.gov.tw/Pages/List.aspx?nodeid=43874)是由立法院和民間共同發起,有許多g0v參與者以「個人身份」參與,並將g0v的協作方式帶進行動方案討論的過程中,包括運用vTaiwan平台徵集意見。可以參考g0v summit2020中[開放國會,百樂門開門議程共筆](https://g0v.hackmd.io/c/summit20/%2F%40summit2020%2FSyxdBYPfsw)[name=isabel] > > [g0v jothon during Covid-19,2020](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nQ2kmvqzAHmJ42wSukeYda21Bi1_2e8jSnP-eoqzdtM/edit#heading=h.d4ikvr9idea0)[name=isabel] > > [Sharing experiences via “Facing the Ocean” network with civic hackers in Japan & Korea](https://g0v.news/facing-the-coronavirus-1-3e7fc4680ba7) [name=chihao] > [g0v Summit 2020](https://summit.g0v.tw/2020/) 自 2019 年底開始,很活躍地籌備,本週日(12/6)剛落幕。大會沒有「直接與唐鳳合作」,但唐鳳是大會議程中,週日基調座談的與談人之一。[name=chihao] > 我覺得 jothon 超級活躍,每週開會,每兩個月舉辦一次大松。[name=chihao] > 每次大松,都有許多提案,每個坑的活躍程度不一,關注的議題、各自的目標都很不一樣,建議慧中參考歷屆大松提案列表。最近一次的共筆在[這裡](https://beta.hackfoldr.org/g0v-hackath41n)。[name=chihao] > 2020 上半年幾個 g0ver 很活躍的做了《[0archive 零時檔案局](https://0archive.tw/)》,備份了許多內容農場、新聞網站、社交媒體的資料,並整理釋出公開資料集。[name=chihao] ## 5. 疫情這段時間g0v也利用了政府開放的一些數據因為製造了很多口罩有關的應用程式,可是這些項目都有遇到一些難題比如數據沒有被實時更新或者太多用戶導致這些程序當機- - 雖然遇到了故障請問你覺得這個有幫助民眾嗎 或者有幫助防疫的行動嗎?政府開放的數據是什麼樣的數據?共享本身是否值得注意? I saw that previously you guys had praised Taiwan's government for opening up and sharing data, which allowed developers to create the face mask apps. Yet, some apps were perhaps too popular and crashed temporarily. Do you think these apps helped the epidemic effort? Did they help ordinary citizens? What kind of data was the government sharing exactly? And was that sharing in and of itself notable? > 主要遇到的問題是藥局透過發放號碼牌方式銷售口罩,造成庫存數字無法反應即時的銷售情況而讓相關應用的參考性降低,但對比之前透過便利商店銷售沒有即時庫存數字讓民眾茫然無所從的混亂情況,口罩地圖相關應用已經發揮了預期的目標。大部分應用的資料都是來自政府開放,細節可以[參考共筆](https://g0v.hackmd.io/@kiang/mask-info)得知。由於開放資料的基礎是近 6000 個藥局每天即時銷售數據與各種基礎資料,能夠做到這件事是因為健保署過去 25 年累積的努力,無論是資料連結的規模或是開放資料的舉動都是世界第一的,口罩地圖相關應用就只是站在巨人的肩膀上,處理資訊傳遞的最後一哩路[name=kiang] > 「共享本身是否值得注意」是什麼意思?共享什麼?[name=chihao] > 就是决定共享出这一批数据 -- [name=Huizhong] ## 6. 我也看到之前你們回答別的採訪中提到台灣一開始的防疫工作是來自民間資訊的回饋而非單方面聽信中國或是 WHO 的建議。請問你們覺得台灣政府在防疫工作中哪一方面聽取了民眾的回應? I saw previously that you guys had stated the epidemic control work in Taiwan really took into account citizen's voices as opposed to just trusting China/WHO. In which ways did Taiwan listen to its citizens during this pandemic effort? > 主要是 SARS 期間慘痛的經驗,讓台灣建立了比較高強度的機制來關注來自中國的異常情況,因此初期個別案件的疫情調查資訊應該都有獲得高度重視;後續則是運用法律授權讓疫情調查工作可以進一步延伸到手機定位資料,這嚴格來說算竊聽,但也算是聽取了民眾的回應吧(攤手)[name=kiang] > 口罩地圖公私協力期間,我記得有許多公務人員(包括唐政委)在 g0v Slack 上旁聽大家的建議、回饋,也有一些互動。[name=chihao]

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