# Interview request to g0v from Anoush, [Apolitical](https://apolitical.co/)
## [報導 Published article](https://apolitical.co/solution_article/reprogramming-power-audrey-tang-is-bringing-hacker-culture-to-the-state/)
## 語言 Language
採訪共筆說明：全文以如下授權釋出，如不同意請勿編寫。請媒體朋友在刊出時，附上下列創用 CC 授權標示字樣（英文或中文擇一即可）：
CC BY 4.0 by g0v contributors at https://g0v.hackmd.io/x2FU5CoPT4CRNCzyPtC4NA?view
由 g0v 貢獻者以創用 CC 姓名標示 4.0 授權，網址：https://g0v.hackmd.io/x2FU5CoPT4CRNCzyPtC4NA?view
## 記者提供的參考 References provided by journalist
- [Meet the network tearing down walls between departments in Taiwan](https://apolitical.co/solution_article/meet-the-network-tearing-down-walls-between-departments-in-taiwan/)
## 問題 Questions
### Q1: Since the Sunflower Movement reached it's height in 2014, have g0v’s aims changed? If so, how?
> 從 2014 太陽花運動達到高峰到現在，g0v 的目標有改變嗎？如果有的話，是什麼樣的改變？
`<chihao>` Since g0v is a decentralized community, ever contributor, every small group, every project has their own aim(s).
My personal agenda has always been to experiment and push the limit of decentralized organizing. What kind of things could we accomplish together and with what degree of centralization/decentraliztion? A website? An art exhibition? A article translated? A Summit?
`<wildjcrt>` On top chihao, it's true that we have different aims. I just want to mention that if we see the whole picture, making Taiwan better might be our same aim. Then you can see there are many many contributors, groups, projects making changes in their own way.
`<pm5>` It would be really hard for me to answer this question under the context of Sunflower Movement, because although the movement was the entrypoint for many people to the community, to me it was only one of the major events in the histories of g0v. As for the goals of g0v, I think chihao's answer nicely illustrates the decentralized nature of us. Among the many goals I've heard from the participants of the community there are at least: promote open data, promote collaborations among hackers and NGOs, build international networks of civic tech, promote open source and open culture, promote a hacker's version of activism in the face of social problems, initiate political changes, support civil servants with a progressive mindset, work with and for a more open government. I believe there are until this day proponents to all of these goals, none of these goals are "universally" recognized by the community. Sorry if my answer is not helpful at all.
### Q2: How important has it been having a member of g0v (Audrey Tang) as a government minister? And now that g0v has this bridge to government itself, has the organisation changed? Has the experience of participation changed the way g0v works?
> g0v 成員唐鳳成為政府首長，這件事有多重要？現在 g0v 有了這座與政府之間的橋樑，組織有改變嗎？參與經驗有讓 g0v 運作方式改變嗎？
`<ipa>` Having a participant (not a member, g0v doesn't have "membership") enter the cabinet means differently to the loosely organized community. Some of us had some discussion with Audrey before her final decision, and started a community group interview online document: https://g0v.hackpad.tw/g0v-x-gov--zZD5rfTKDNg
The community is always organically growing, having au as cabinet build some bridges between community and government, such as some work they do in PDIS and the PO system, resonates with g0v spirit in some way. But also, “being institutionized” is another concern that some community participants would challenge.
`<pofeng>` 就我個人而言, 以健保卡虛擬化政策為例, 因為 au 所有的會議紀錄都會公開, 讓我參與政府相關會議時, 能事先了解決策的背景, 進而提出更適切的建議, 所以我認為 au 職位與作法增加了 g0v 社群了解政府相關的決策背景, 到目前為止, 我個人並不認為 au 的職位有影響 g0v 社群的運作或架構
`<chihao translating pofeng>` From my point of view, taking the “Vitual Healthcare Card” policy as an example, the fact that au [Audrey Tang] publishes all her meeting records allows me to understand the background of decision-making before attending related official meetings so I can offer suggestions that are more informed. I think the [official] capacity and methods of au has increased understanding of g0v community about government decision-making. So far, I don’t think that the [official] capacity of au has affected the operation or structure of the g0v community.
`<pm5>` Personally I think having au in the cabinet has more or less the same impact to the government as having multiple participants of g0v working in the central and local govrenments as civil servants. I'd recommend [this panel](https://summit.g0v.tw/2018/agenda/recOgBGMx8wUyB0km/when-nobody-becomes-somebody) to understand various roles these participants have in the organization.
`<ael>` I would say g0v is not an organization, so there is no membership as ipa addressed. It is interesting that some think g0v now has Audrey as "the bridge" to government. Audrey personally doesn't push any policy agenda at all, not even open data. Her attitude is if you want to change any policy, talk to the department in charge not to her. She only provides some basic knowledge on how government works and past policies. She is more like the bridge of government to community. She brings in multi-stakeholder meetings, issue analysis, open collaboration practices in the government and encourage people in the government to join community.
I agree with pm5 that Audrey is just one participant that enters the government although she does attract most of the media spotlight. There are many participants enter and collaborate with government at different level in different ways, e.g. IT consultant, digital minister in city government, Youth Committee in city government, secretary in some departments, running for election etc. I don't think whether Audrey is in the office would change how g0v works but can change the government attitudes towards digital policies and digital bureaucracy to be more open. Sometimes it is good that there is a minister in the cabinet that knows blocking IPs and government controlling fake news are not good ideas. As for g0v community, it still remains that some work with the government and some criticize it harshly.
### Q3: How important is design to the work that g0v does? How do you design the social spaces and tools you create when you fork government? What is the process? How do you decide what works?
> 對 g0v 在做的事來說，設計的重要性是？在 fork 政府的時候，你們是怎麼設計具有社會性的空間和工具的？設計的過程是什麼？怎麼覺得什麼 work 什麼不 work？
Design can mean many things so it is quite broad if the question is trying to map out the relationship between design and g0v projects. And the diversity of g0v projects makes this question even more difficult to answer holistically.
From my observation, many g0v projects initiated in hackathons. Hackathons and design process do not really go together. Hacking starts from the hacker, while designing starts from the user.
`<yutin>` 社會是多元的，成長經驗的不同看待事情的態度可能會不同，我們不應該相信會有一位全能的專案經理，但我們可以嘗試多種不同的版本，並透過持續的迭代及使用者直接的反饋，讓『social spaces and tools』變得更好，當然我們需要先接受 beta 及可能會失敗。
`<kjcl translating yutin>` [Our] society is diverse. People with different lived experiences will see the world differently. We should not believe that there could exist a single, omnipotent project manager, but we can test different processes and tools. Through iteration and the feedback from our users, we can improve "social spaces and tools". Of course, we must first accept that our iterative beta testing may fail at first.
`<wildjcrt>` 我覺得 g0v 多元的特性，造成這裡問的「設計」一事並未有很好的體現。以好的面向來看，眾多貢獻者把目前工作上的 best practices 帶入專案中，讓許多參與者體驗到截然不同的工作/協作流程後，帶回自己周遭分享，進而影響到學校、公司企業、政府部門等等。
在設計面剛好最近 UI/UX Taipei 是請子龍和卓致遠來講設計師與公民參與，內容還蠻適合引用的。（利益揭露，我是女人迷的工程師） https://medium.com/%E5%A5%B3%E4%BA%BA%E8%BF%B7%E8%A8%AD%E8%A8%88%E5%AF%A6%E9%A9%97%E5%AE%A4-womany-phd-lab/9%E6%9C%88-ui-ux-taipei-%E7%AD%86%E8%A8%98-%E8%A8%AD%E8%A8%88%E5%B8%AB%E8%88%87%E5%85%AC%E6%B0%91%E5%8F%83%E8%88%87-%E8%AC%9B%E8%80%85%E5%88%86%E4%BA%AB%E7%AF%87-c74fcd866de2
`<ael>` To respond "How do you decide what works?", basically we experiment what works. Trial and error. No formal structure and designing process.
### Q4: Is it important for g0v limit its own power? Do you have to build checks and balances for yourself because of the skills you have?
> g0v 是不是應該限制自己的 power？這件事重不重要？因為你們擁有的技術，g0v 是不是應該內建查核、平衡的機制？
`<ipa>` this visualization is from my talk at g0v Summit 2018, we can see g0v is not single entity, it is fluid web.
I would use “impact” instead of “power” is from some influential projects. And projects now in g0v are almost a mixture between tech and other domain knowledge. We encourage people to open source their codes, document, so the community will have a way to reach collective consensus through the creation and development process. But the project lead can always make the final decision.
`<pofeng>` 萬一政府有監視人民(或非法組織)的相關計畫, 我個人會避免參與, 但是因為 open source 的緣故, 假設 g0v 發展了輿情監控系統, 的確很有可能會被政府拿去運用, 這的確是需要考慮, 但目前還沒發生的事情
`<kjcl translating pofeng>` In case the government is engaging in mass surveillance or is designing illegal systems, I will avoid participating. That being said, due to our open source nature, if g0v created a mass surveillance system, it is indeed true that the government could indeed co-opt it for their own purposes. This scenario deserves consideration, but nothing of that sort has happened yet.
`<yutin>` 科技是中立的，開源也可以讓演算法被審視，g0ver 是分散的個體沒有多數的群聚共識很難產生影響力(impact)，然而許多議題不會只有單一的方案。
`<chihao>` If we look at g0vernance of g0v, since g0v has many “centers”, they theoretically checks and balaces each other. This mechanism is very tolerant, dependent on the individual judgement of what is right and wrong.
To me, to argue that g0v should “limit it’s own power” is weird because it is not a single entity. It is also a curious argument because it is sitting somewhere beween asking #BlackLivesMatter to limit its own power, and asking Google to limit its own power. Given the difference in organizational structure, is this still a valid question?
`<ael>` It is hard to check and balance when there is no organization entity. It is the power needed to be checked and balanced not the skills. So is g0v having a power right now? It is hard to say. I would say some g0v participants have larger voices than others. If someone is getting political resources and being considered as the representative of g0v (although there is no representatives), then they have the responsibility to be checked, e.g. open transcripts or materials of those meetings that they participate as "g0v participant", which many g0v participants do when they joing government meetings.
### Q5: How do you engage people who don’t have technical/coding skills in the work you do?
`<ipa>` We have only about 40% of technical people in our bi-monthly hackathon. (Back in 2012, the first hackathon was 90% coder, 10% non-coder.) We've done *A LOT* to promote the idea of "hacking", not just hacking code, but also hacking the norms, how we can work together in a multicentered way, how we can use open license to blur the boundary between different fileds. But obvoiusly there's always so much to do. So from 2016, we have "[g0v Infrastrution Hackthon](https://g0v-jothon.kktix.cc/)", (by [g0v jothon task force](https://trello.com/b/f8gWnjeC/g0v-jothon-organizer) trying to engage people to build a more and more friendly tools and interface (including UI and UX) to mobilize the braoder sense of "open community".
`<chihao>` I talk with them about what g0v mean to me, and what they can do with/in g0v. Echoing ipa, hacking is definitely more than coding. You can hack all kinds of systems -- schools, companies, biology, your life. Another point is the expansion of the term “tech”. It is not just information technology. Writing is tech, design is tech. It is about activating the **agency** of each other, using that agency to **reclaim the phrases** that we define us in the society to redefine ourselves. We hack ourselves, or at least I know I do.
`<ael>` I am not from technical background. From my personal experience, people engage when they find what they can contribute. Contribution can start from small tasks like collecting data, translating documents and testing the website. If you can match a project with their profession or interests, they will contribute more, e.g. labor right activist in housing data, journalists in fighting disinformation, designers to help UI/UX, public servants to explain how government works, legislator assistant to help review the law draft, Taiwanese speakers to record Taiwanese voices to corwdsourcing website etc.
### Q6: What can g0v’s experience teach other countries? Is there any chance of such a radical change to institutions in other, larger contexts than Taiwan.
> g0v 經驗能教給其他國家什麼嗎？在其他比台灣更大的脈絡之中，有機會造成機構基進、根本的變化嗎？
`<ipa>` Very good question! People at the summit are asking about the same questions from different countries. The community (ppl who are reading this XD) should all start writing about their g0v experience!
Being a community organizer for some time (and I don’t code), how to build an open, safe, productive environment online and offline, is the key elements of g0v experience. How to frame the community, how to collectively setup guildlines after crisis, how to encourage people to start their own task force, how to have "no one can represent g0v" and "everyone can claim he/she is g0v" exist at the same time, is what the community has been thinking and doing for the past 6 years. That might be something worth sharing to other countries.
`<chihao>` Echoing ipa again, the (un)organizing experiences generated by g0v is what I think most valuable. If we simplify that to empowerment of individuals, we can say that “the g0v way” is assimilating into government, through Audrey Tang’s office, through many g0v contributors interacting with public servants. “The g0v way” is also finding its way into corporations. For example my company [Watchout](https://watchout.tw) organizes around projects with a horizontal, consensus-based, and worker-led decision-making model.
### Q7: How have you all changed personally since g0v began? Have you all become more optimistic through the work that you do? Have you expectations been met? What have been your frustrations?
> 從 g0v 開始到現在，你們個人有什麼改變嗎？更樂觀？有滿足你們的期望嗎？有沒有什麼挫折？
`<yutin>` 推動政府開放與資訊化，從個人是困難的，g0v 在這件事情上成了行動的代名詞，更有機會接觸到關鍵角色並行動，但這是一個持續的課題還沒完成。
`<wildjcrt>` It's a marathon. If you don't aware that, you might feel sad when things change not that fast. I believe Taiwan people will aware in some day and we have to keep doing and trying.
I sometimes dream about what if there are much more contributors, or what if my family, friends and government servants they all wake up. In my opinion, we should realize that there is always something could be better. Just do it and then let's wait and see.
我覺得挫折面可以引用 Claire + ETBlue 在 summit 2018 的演講內容。 https://etblue.blogspot.com/2018/10/claire-g0v-summit-2018.html
### Q8: Has radical transparency always proved successful? How has it helped the way you work?
`<pofeng>` "release early, release often", 幫助我個人可以在不同小團體之間了解彼此的進度, 幫助橫向溝通, 避免重複的工作,
完全的透明可能會有一些困擾, 像某位政治學者就在 facebook 提問說, 政治獻金的公開資料被中國拿去分析, 用來尋找可能立場可能支持台灣獨立的企業, 想要知道 g0v 社群的看法, 而 au 也常常在演講提到, 因為他徹底實行透明政策 (所見所聞都要公開) 所以他選擇不接觸國家機密資料, 也在演習的時候請假, 避免知道官員避難防空洞的位置
雖然 g0v 社群普遍認為應該要儘量透明, 但是事實是, g0v 內部的小團體彼此之間也不可能是徹底完全的透明, 但我的觀察是, 度過不透明的階段之後, 如果能夠朝透明的方向前進, 整體來說還是能幫助協作(合作)
`<pm5>` I've always considered the problem of transparency not by "how transparent you are" but by "is there anything you feel uncomfortable to be transparent about but is actually beneficial to you and others when it is transparent." I do not appoarch it as a race towards radical transparency, but as a chance for reflection and to always ask each other: could we be a little more transparent about some things, even if it feels uncomfortable, seems to take too much time, or simply impossible at first glance. This kind of conversation very often acts as a leverage for a larger-scale restructure of an organization. But of course radical transparency is not successful everywhere everytime, especially if you skipped the required work of communication, infrastructure, "design"ing the process, and supports. There is no silver bullet.
### Q9: Have you experienced any major setbacks along the way? If so, what were they?
`<chihao>` 說實在的，沒有什麼挫折感，反倒是一直覺得在迂迴前進。[translating myself] Honestly I don’t see setbacks. I see us always moving forward, just that the road is not aways clearly visible, nor is it always straight ahead.
`<pm5>` Nothing like that so far actually. We do have a few major problems that we are constantly trying to resolve, such as the public's seemingly unchanged fixation towards au and the tendencies to interpret g0v through a single person's words, which I believe au is also trying hard to change when she can and want :P But seriously, I do feel that we have always been making progresses, albeit slower than expected sometimes. Maybe that's because there are so many things to work on.
`<chihao>` Echoing pm5. Seriously people. g0v is not a person. g0v is not an organization with a CEO. There are so much more in g0v than au.
`<au>` Echoing chihao, like, totally.
## 訪問 Scheduled interviews (open OR closed, online OR offline)
- [2018-09-17 au 與 anoush 的採訪逐字稿](https://sayit.pdis.nat.gov.tw/2018-09-17-interview-with-anoush-darabi) ([CC0](https://github.com/audreyt/archive.tw/blob/gh-pages/LICENSE), no rights reserved)